Showing posts with label Romance languages. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Romance languages. Show all posts

Tuesday, April 14, 2020


Major myth debunked: The Romance languages DO NOT come from Latin (comment on a video by Carme Jimenez Huertas)

Hah! I feel so vindicated. Vindicated is not exactly the right word, but something that is partially quite vindicated, mixed with happy, and utterly delighted with my discovery of this amazing interview on youtube.
Unfortunately, if you can’t understand Spanish, you’ll miss out on it.
I’m not a linguist, so I don’t know how “traditional” linguists would respond to all the points Carme Jiménez Huertas*, philologist specialized in linguistics, makes.
The fact is she has answered a most fundamental question I had which had popped up in my mind as soon as I started learning a bit of Latin.
Something unexplainable starkly stood out to me. Something did not make sense at all: the syntax of the Romance languages in many fundamental ways does not match Latin AT ALL, BUT it is very similar across all Romance languages. Obviously, this blows a hole the size of a crater in the theory that says that Romance languages are DERIVED from Latin. They cannot be, simply cannot be.
And here it is beautifully explained why, along with so many other interesting linguistics points.
Basically, there was a Western European language that is the mother of all Romance languages which was spoken all across the region. With the Roman conquest, Latin permeated and intervened in this older maternal Romance language, but it obviously was NOT Latin that was the matrix! This older Romance language is the mother of all Romance languages, not Latin! This older Romance language was spoken all across Western Europe before Latin arrived on the scene, already forming all kinds of regional variations over time. Latin came and shaped all these already existing variations of this older Romance language, but it did not generate them from its “scratch” Latin base (including from Vulgar Latin!). The “vulgarization” theory is ridiculous. That’s exactly what I thought as well.
I have to ask people studying linguistics now if academics are still going around saying that Latin is the mother of Romance languages or if this very old and entrenched myth has begun to be discarded on the face of pure logic and more recent research.
Loved it! Note the points she makes from about min. 34 to 50: The key question when comparing the fundamental syntax of a language, regarding its main components, plus comparisons with key and root vocabulary, plus the fact that Latin sits in between the Romance languages and German.
And very interestingly, and with which I totally agree, is the question of time. There was not sufficient time for so much fundamental syntactic change, as the (stupid) theory of Latin being the matrix of Romance languages claims. 400 years is NOTHING – as she so keenly and wonderfully points out. This was one of my questions as well! Hah! I feel so vindicated. For a language’s syntax to change on the level of such fundamental syntactic mechanisms, it takes thousands of years, not a few hundred. This is perfectly true!
So cool. Sorry, but I don’t feel like transcribing and translating to English everything she says.
p.s. And the question of what language  all the varied and highly diverse Roman troops spoke is also very interesting. All the foreigners in the Roman armies probably had learned, at a minimum, some basic Latin to function, but otherwise, as she says, they spoke their own language of origin. That’s my guess without more info at the moment. Some questions remain for me also about the written form of this older language.

Friday, November 29, 2019


Latin contributed vocabulary but it is not the mother tongue of the Romance languages
by Carmen J. Huertas

There is a law of linguistics that says that languages ​​diverge and that excludes any possibility of convergent evolution. If Romance languages ​​derived from Latin as breasts have said, they would separate from each other but maintain a clear linguistic relationship with the mother.
However, that is not what we found. Romance languages ​​resemble each other reaching identical convergent solutions, which instead show a break with Latin.
How do you explain that a mother tongue does not legify its daughters or the morphology, the syntax, the phonetic laws, or the structure and order of the constituents of the sentence and also that the declinations, the deponent verbs are lost, the connectors....?
This convergence of romances can only be understood if the relationship is prior to the so-called romanization. They would therefore be languages ​​derived from a common mother tongue from which Latin also drank, through Etruscan and the Sabbath languages ​​that were already in the territory before the arrival of the Romans.
When at the beginning of the 7th century B.C. The influence of Rome went beyond the region of Lazio, the Italian peninsula was occupied by two large flourishing cultures: the Etruscan in the north and the Greek in the south.
Different peoples were divided into groups: those who spoke Latin-Faliscan languages, north of the city of Rome and in the central region of Lazio; Osco-Umbras or Sabélicas, spoken in most of the Italian peninsula, and the Tyrannical language better known as Etruscan, spoken in Tuscany.
Greek was also spoken. If we place the extent of these languages ​​on a map, we will see that Latin expansion was minimal.
Where did this language come from so unrelated to those of its neighbors? Latinos were getas, a tribe of Dacians from the Danube area. When Rome subdued all populations in their conquest campaigns, their contingents spoke Sabbath-speaking languages ​​of the Osco-Umbrian trunk. In addition, in the case of the Punic Wars, the Roman armies employed citizens of Hispania, who cannot be considered active agents of Romanization.
Therefore, that Latin was the official language of the empire does not mean that all Romans spoke Latin, much less that they imposed their language on us.
In fact, except for the patricians, the Romans had to study to speak Latin correctly. When we analyze languages ​​synchronously, we observe territorial continuity with transit zones and linguistic isoglosses that act as borders.
By studying diachronically the linguistic change, we can appreciate that the internal changes of a language are slow or very slow; they do not occur in centuries, but in millennia. We have clear examples with Spanish and American English that, after 500 years, remain English and Spanish. In no case have tongues been deformed nor have they been syntactically unstructured; they maintain their grammar rules even though they may suffer a significant lexical transfer. For centuries, Latin was considered the language of culture.
It was only written in Latin. Its prestige was so great that new words were created from Latin or Greek, leaving aside the method of composition, so productive, with which our languages ​​allow us to create as many terms as we need. However, if we carry out a deeper analysis, we realize that many of the ethics used to demonstrate the Latin origin of the words of the Romance languages ​​can explain better from our knowledge of Iberian than from Latin.
To begin with, the compositional elements that in the romances are dismantled, acquire meaning if they are compared with the Iberian cognates. But even its supposed etymological evolution falls apart if we take into account the characteristics of Iberian phonetics.
To give an example, the palatalization that is explained as a correlation of changes that have occurred over three hundred years due to the influence of iod (which assumes a Celtic influence) can be explained simply from the Iberian. Because precisely the / i /, the anterior palatal vowel, is the most present vowel in Iberian.
This would demonstrate that more than 50% of the linguistic change that until now has been attributed to an external influence, could have its origin in Iberian speech. Another interesting case is that of the formation of fricatives. Since the sound fricative / Z / did not exist in Latin, its appearance is justified by saying that it was formed from the deaf / S / in contact with the glide yod. Well, it is clear that the Iberian texts clearly represent two different sibilant fricatives, considered S and Z respectively. There are also two different rhythms in Iberian, one single / R / and one double / RR /. Undoubtedly the most difficult to explain is the appearance of African sounds and the same happens with the rest of the phonetic inventory. Where do these joints, present in all Romance languages, but nonexistent in Latin? If the theme of phonetics shows an abyss between Latin and its supposed daughters, the morphology and syntax are not the same as those of the supposed mother tongue.
The grammatical cases and the links that establish the syntactic correlations disappear; the preferential use of peripheral constructions is established over analytical ones; the passive voice decreases; there are no deponent verbs; non-personal verbal forms are reduced; there are no absolute ablative sentences or infinitive sentences; the paradigm of non-lexical categories is expanded: prepositions, adverbs and conjunctions; and last but not least, there is a radical change in the order of the constituents of the sentence and in the structure of interrogative and negative sentences ...
In historical grammar, an attempt is made to justify the enormous distance that separates Latin from Romance languages, speaking of vulgarization, of a setback that led to parataxis, that is, it returned to the primitive stage of using nonverbal language, gestures, to understand each other. beyond a language that only used simple sentences or elementary composition by coordination. There is not a single society on the entire planet earth that does not have a perfectly structured language, because as generative grammar demonstrates, language is an intrinsic part of the human race, it only serves for communication, it is the basis of abstract thinking! We are born genetically prepared to speak! The reality is that linguists cannot explain this structural change between Latin and Romance. And what is even more difficult, in this supposed state of confusion, speakers from regions as far away as Galicia and Romania, who were never in touch with the fall of the Empire, came to identical solutions.
Chance? Our current languages ​​share many words; This affinity would not respond so much to Latinization but to a common lexicon that would go back thousands of years. The differences would be the result of the slow natural evolution from an older mother tongue and shared by the different Mediterranean peoples.
Given this situation, we should pay more attention to the more than two thousand epigraphic texts that Iberian culture has left us.
We should ask ourselves how it is possible that, in the 21st century, his writing will continue without deciphering.
Why it is still explained in the schools that were the Roman conquerors who contributed culture and civilization. Why it is not known the high level of indigenous culture that has commercialized since ancient times with other Mediterranean peoples: Minoan, Mycenaean, Hellenic, Phoenician.
And in linguistics, why a complicated theoretical framework of phonetic evolution that ignores the characteristics of the Iberian is still used.
The multiple questions posed by this work should help us rethink current philological studies. The Iberian language is our great hope to advance in the understanding of our own roots.
Reference:
https://www.academia.edu/5855719/No_venimos_del_lat%C3%ADn_resumen

Wednesday, July 31, 2019

   Romance languages do not come from latin

There is a law of linguistics that says that languages ​​diverge and that excludes any possibility of convergent evolution. If Romance languages ​​derive from Latin as we have been told, they would separate from each other but maintain a clear linguistic relationship with the mother. However, what we find is just the opposite: Romance languages ​​share the same linguistic typology and closely resemble each other, arriving at identical convergent solutions that show a break with
 Latin.

Vulgar Latin, understood as a unitary language derived from the Latin from which the romances would derive, did not exist. What we always find is classic Latin written with better or worse mastery. We could compare it to what is happening today with English, the global communication language used by science and international trade: not all users speak it correctly and that does not mean that there is a vulgar English, there is well spoken English and many other types of badly spoken English that clearly reflect the language and accent of the speaker. In the same way, the texts written in medieval Latin are indicators that the person intends to write in Latin having a limited knowledge of Latin grammar, and this in no way should be interpreted as being the oral language: who writes the Latin wrong simply He does it because of ignorance of Latin, and not because it is his usual way of speaking. Written language and spoken language were two different realities. In historical grammar, we try to justify the enormous distance that separates Latin from Romance languages, speaking of vulgarization, of a setback that led to parataxis, that is, it returned to the primitive stage of using nonverbal language, with gestures, to understand beyond a language that only used simple sentences or elementary composition by coordination. However, this statement cannot be sustained because there is no culture in the world whose language is so abruptly deformed that there is a stage of loss of grammatical markers to the point of ambiguity and confusion. Such a case could only occur temporarily and in a situation of strong diglossia, a consequence of forced coexistence with speakers of another language who would not have allowed bilingualism. But that is not what happened. The agents of political unification had disappeared when the empire fell, so there was no pressure on native speech. Therefore, the convergence between the languages ​​languages ​​can only be understood if the relationship is prior to the so-called Romanization. The romances would be languages ​​with a close relationship of kinship and with a linguistic typology that would have evolved much more slowly than what has been affirmed. That Latin was the official language of the empire, does not mean that all Romans spoke Latin and much less that imposed their language on the conquered peoples. The Roman Empire, in its different stages, included more than 67 countries with a total of 270 ethnic communities with their respective languages ​​and dialects. The Palestinians were under Roman rule 800 years; Egyptians and Greeks 400 years, and they never imposed their tongues. In fact, except the patricians, the Romans had to study to speak Latin correctly. If they understood each other with neighboring countries, it was because their languages ​​were related and not because they had been quickly Latinized.

The reality is that linguists cannot explain this structural change between Latin and Romance. And what is even more difficult, in this supposed state of confusion, speakers from regions as far away as Galicia and Romania, who were never in touch with the fall of the Empire, came to identical solutions.
Chance?
Our current languages ​​share many words; This affinity would not respond so much to Latinization but to a common lexicon that would go back thousands of years. The differences would be the result of the slow natural evolution from an older mother tongue and shared by the different Mediterranean peoples. Historical grammar has started from the supposed Latin origin without taking into account that the inhabitants of our lands spoke and wrote long before the Roman conquest. The lexicon is the most volatile part of a language. If we carry out an analysis a little deeper, we realize that many of the ethics used to demonstrate the Latin origin of the words of the Romance languages ​​can be better explained from the knowledge of the substrate languages. We find many of these ethical comoforming of place names that literally describe a territory geographically. Cognitive linguistics is a symbolic basis for all grammatical constructs. The compositional elements that have been considered dismantled in romances are actually symbolic bases that join together in information clusters to form a larger unit used by speakers to understand and produce the language: These are symbolic formants of a compositional language. These formants or lexemas are still in the current lexicon of both Romance and non-Romance languages ​​and have reached us on two levels. On the one hand, we have the phonetic level: there are sound similarities, mostly consonant, that show us unexplained or unexplained relationships from the official canons. Comparative grammar has studied these phonetic changes from the synchronous and diachronic analysis between related languages, which has made it possible to verify the systematization in the change of consonants. But so far it had not been studied semantically. The relationship
semantics of these formants is so evident that it seems incredible that until now the compositional character of our languages ​​has not been identified: the basic unit is composed of a semantic structure with a phonological label
If the phonetics and etymology show an abyss between Latin and its supposed daughters, the morphology and syntax are not the same as those of the so-called mother tongue. In nominal forms, there are no cases, because there is no need; grammatical functions are marked with the use of prepositions. The links that establish syntactic relationships are completely different. In general terms, the preferential use of peripheral constructions is established over analytical ones. In the verbal paradigm, the passive voice is used very little because the opposition is Agent-Object and not Agent-Patient; there are no deponent verbs; nonpersonal verbal forms are reduced; there are no absolute ablative sentences or infinitive sentences. As for the non-lexical or closed categories: prepositions, adverbs and conjunctions, although they should be the most stable, there is no relation of continuity but of total breakage; The romances present and share a wide and varied paradigm that did not exist in Latin.
And last but not least, between romances and Latin there is a radical change in the order of the constituents of the sentence and in the structure of interrogative and negative sentences that show that they belong to different linguistic typologies.


Where do Romance languages ​​come from?

Romance languages ​​do not come from anywhere. They were here. They were the languages ​​spoken in the territory, slightly different as they separate linguistically and geographically. This process of change is slow or very slow. The articulatory characteristics that, according to historical grammar, are attributed to the change from Latin to vulgar Latin and from there to Romance languages, could have evolved directly from a previous and common mother tongue that does not pass through Latin. The relationship with Latin would be kinship, not filiation. Undoubtedly a fascinating aspect that we present in this new edition is the finding that the Romanian retains some aspects that help us get closer to this common mother tongue. But we must also take into account that in the Iberian Peninsula there was Iberian writing; Through it we know that many of the changes that historical grammar attributes to the evolutionary process of classical Latin to vulgar Latin, could be caused by the language of the substrate. Our current languages ​​share many words and this affinity does not seem to respond to the incorporation of foreign words or rocambolesque phonetic evolutions, but to a common lexicon based on the same ideas or concepts, expressed through compositional formants that refer us to a mother tongue common and older, shared by different peoples, language that would go back thousands of years. This forces us to focus our attention on the previous languages. In this situation, we should approach the more than two thousand epigraphic texts that Iberian culture has left us. We should ask ourselves how it is possible that, in the 21st century, his writing will continue without deciphering. Why it is still explained in the schools that were the Roman conquerors who contributed culture and civilization. Why it is not known the high level of indigenous culture that has commercialized since ancient times with other Mediterranean peoples: Minoan, Mycenaean, Hellenic, Phoenician. And in linguistics, why a complicated theoretical framework of phonetic evolution that ignores the characteristics of the Iberian is still used.
The multiple questions posed by this work should help us rethink current philological studies. The Iberian language is our great hope to advance in the understanding of our own roots,
Author: Carme Jiménez Huertas